Posts Tagged With: Newmar

Orange County Show Again……

This story really starts at our Credit Union.

Since we were foiled in our attempts to get a good idea of what we could afford at the dealer in Moorpark, we decided to go check out our Credit Union. I had gone on their website, and they had loans specifically for RVs advertised there at very good interest rates.

Laura and I went over there and had a chat with a loan officer. We discussed what we wanted, and filled out a loan application to get pre-approved for an RV loan. The entire process took about a half hour. The loan officer said he would call the next day with results. We ended up getting a call later the same day.

We were approved for a loan, but at a lower dollar amount and a higher interest rate than we liked. We also had other limitations. No coaches over 10 years old. No coaches over 30K miles. Can’t buy out of state. Maximum term was 10 years, instead of the 15 to 20 year maximums that are widely available, at least for new coaches. As I was talking to the loan officer on the phone, I was just shaking my head. I’ve been with this Credit Union since 1978. They used to be tied to my employer. Now they have expanded to service anybody who wants to belong due to the new Credit Union regulations, and they changed their name too. But they haven’t really changed how they operate. For loans, they are very restrictive and very strict. In all the years that I’ve been with these folks, I’ve never been able to get a decent car loan from them, and in the early days, I couldn’t even get loans from them for things like appliances. The last few car loans I’ve gotten have been from the GM loan company (GMAC)….I always tend to buy GM cars since I still get the GM Employee Discount. I always got a much better deal from GMAC than the Credit Union would offer. Better terms, better interest rates. I was hoping that since I’m a lot older and have a lot of resources at this point, I’d get better treatment from this credit union. Nope. Probably won’t bother with them again. We still use them for savings accounts, of course, but I’m not sure why.

After that fun experience, Laura and I started looking in two directions. First, we would see what we could get for the amount of money that the Credit Union would allow us. Second, we would go to one of the big RV dealers in the area and talk money with them on new and slightly used coaches.

If we were to try to stick to the Credit Union limits, we would have to walk a tightrope for a Class A Coach. We would have just over 70K to spend, including the required down payment of 15K. There are lots of fairly well made coaches out there from the 2006-2009 time-frame available for that price or less. It knocks out almost any diesel coaches, but at this point we aren’t interested in those anyway. The term of the loan was probably the biggest problem. If we go with the longest term offered, we get an interest rate that I just flat-out don’t want to pay. If we go with the shorter term that has a better rate, we are going to be looking at coaches from the earlier years – 2006-2008 or the monthly payment is going to be too high. Going with a coach that old is risky, in my opinion. Coaches from that vintage that have been used and maintained correctly will be pushing on the 30K mile limit. Coaches that age that have very low miles (I’ve seen as low as 3000 miles) have been sitting. And sitting. And sitting. Motor Homes that are parked in a storage lot and forgotten for years at a time develop some really bad problems. Dried seals. Roof or window leaks that weren’t found and fixed right away, which can lead to mold and dry rot. Tires in need of replacement because of sun damage. Paint problems. Gummy engines. Gas and oil that have absorbed a lot of water. Some of these are multi-thousand dollar problems. I’m also a little worried about 2008-2009 coaches, because they are from the time when the RV industry was experiencing one of the largest downturns ever. Many old guard companies went out of business during that time. Some of them got swallowed up by Forest River and Thor, but there was a lot of worker displacement and probably a lot of bad morale. Fleetwood is a good example. They are still in business today with new partners, but they went bankrupt during the downturn, and moved their manufacturing out of California overnight. Finally, if we wanted to buy a rental unit from an outfit like El Monte RV, the 30K mile limit would make that impossible.

Why would we even consider buying a rental?

If you want to go very cheap, a former rental unit can be a good choice. I’ve done a lot of research on this. El Monte RV tends to sell their coaches after 4-6 years. The rapid turnover is important to their business. They rent mainly to foreign customers. Most of these folks are German, but there is a mixture of Europeans that come over here and rent RVs. These customers want a clean, modern coach with the latest electronics. That means that 4-6 years is the useful life. It’s also important that these coaches be reliable – El Monte RV doesn’t want customers getting stranded. That’s bad for business. So these coaches have been maintained by the book. Laura and I have looked at some of their coaches from the 2010 model year. They had 50-60K miles on them. Problem areas were fixed for the sale – you often get a new mattress and new upholstery inside. If the tires are too old, they are replaced. All the systems have been tested and repaired. El Monte also supplies the complete maintenance records for their coaches, so you can see everything that was fixed on them, when the oil changes happened, and so on. I would be more wary of buying a 2008 non-rental coach with 5K miles on it than one of these rentals of the same vintage, because I know the extreme low mileage coach is going to have problems due to sitting, and I’m not going to have a reliable look at the history of the unit. Bottom line is that, if I chose to go with the Credit Union loan at the shortest term, former rentals are probably the best choice, but the 30K mile cap ruins that idea. It’s funny when you think about it, because the lack of knowledge on the part of the Credit Union is going to cost them in some cases. Ignorance is bliss, as they say.

Orange County RV Show Again!

As we were making plans to go shopping again, I got an email from the largest RV Dealership in So Cal. It was the same one that held the Orange County RV show that we went to a couple of months ago. They were holding the Orange County RV Show again at the same location, and it was starting the next day. This was perfect….our plan was to go check out what they had in the way of used coaches in the Credit Union price range, plus take another look at the Georgetown 329 and talk some dollars. We didn’t need to worry about having somebody there to have that kind of discussion. It’s harder to leave this dealership without having these kind of discussions! There was another Georgetown coach that I wanted to see as well. I’d seen it on the Forest River website and on some dealer websites. It looked very good, even better than the 329. This coach is the Georgetown 328.

We got to the show on Friday afternoon, after a nice lunch with Laura’s mother and aunt. We just got into the gate when we were approached by a salesman. He seemed to be a nice guy, so I explained what we wanted to do. This guy was very open to our ideas.

We walked down the row of new coaches, toward the Georgetown 329. On the way, he pointed out an Itasca coach, so we went in to take a look. This is a Winnebago product, and it looked very nice. It was a 31 foot unit – The Sunstar 31KE. There was one “must have” that this coach didn’t offer. Dual air conditioners and a 50 amp electrical service with 5500 generator. That wasn’t going to work for us. This one is also on a very small chassis – only 16,000 pound, which puts it in the same league as the entry-level units that we had decided not to consider. So it was thanks, but no thanks on this unit.

The salesman also pointed out a Windsport 32A, and asked if we would like to see that. This is a floor plan that Laura and I liked quite a bit, so we took a look. This coach didn’t have any show stoppers for us. It has a nice sized kitchen counter with plenty of work space, and a wrap around dinette. As I’ve gotten more experienced at looking, though, the Thor products like the Windsport and Hurricane look pretty shoddy. This unit has a large kitchen counter, but it’s solid surface counter doesn’t look very good. There was a strip of wallpaper about a foot wide that was used as a back splash, and it wasn’t even installed very well. It wasn’t completely straight, and it wasn’t pushed into the corner of the wall. Look how it wraps over to the wood, and isn’t even cut straight. The stove has the cheap black metal cover over the burners like low-end RVs do. The LED TV was small, and not a desirable brand. The floor looked cheap. The vent in the roof over the kitchen area didn’t have a fan in it.


Windsport Kitchen

There is a wrap around dinette in the Windsport. It’s nice, but a little small.

Windsport wrap around dinette. Note size of table.

Windsport wrap around dinette. Note size of table.

The bathroom had a china bowl toilet, which is nice, but you can just see the white plastic sink on the edge of the picture.

Windsport Bathroom

Windsport Bathroom

Laura and I initially thought these models looked pretty good, after checking out coaches on the lowest end of the price scale like the THOR A.C.E. line, the FR3, and the Coachmen Mirada. After looking at mid-range coaches, I don’t think I could live with the Windsport or Hurricane. It’s entry-level quality at a midrange price. MSRP on this coach is the same as the Georgetown 329….119K.


Next stop was the Georgetown section, and we took another look at the Georgetown 329. This is the one that we liked at the last show. What a world of difference from the Windsport for a unit of the same price level. Take a look at the picture below. Note the solid surface counter, a real glass tile back splash around the stove area, and the nice looking plumbing fixtures for the sink. You can’t see it in this shot, but the sink is a double basin stainless steel unit. There is also a nice cover over the stove burners that blends in with the counter top, instead of the cheap black metal of the Windsport.

The long, long counter of the Georgetown 329

The long, long counter of the Georgetown 329

You also get the wrap around dinette with this unit, and it’s quite a bit nicer than the one in the Windsport. The it’s about twice as big, for both the seating area and especially the table space.

Wrap around dinette on the Georgetown 329

Wrap around dinette on the Georgetown 329

I asked the salesman if there were any Georgetown 328 units available. He told us that there wasn’t one of those at the show, but there was one at the Colton location. This is our salesman’s home base….he was at the Fountain Valley location to help with the show. He offered to bring the 328 to this location for us to look at, if we were interested. He said he had to go over there the next day and pick some stuff up to bring to the show anyway. I asked him if the price for the 328 was close to the price of the 329, and he said that they were fairly close. The MSRP is on the 328 in Colton slightly higher than the 329 on this lot, but that is partly due to options. Laura and I told the salesman that we could come back to the show on the next day, as long as it was after about 3:00. He said that was perfect for him, and that he thought he could get the coach to Fountain Valley by about 4:00.

Used Coaches

There were two used coaches on the dealer’s website that looked interesting to me, and weren’t too old. We walked over to the used coach row, but neither of these coaches were there. The salesman didn’t know if they were sold or what, but he said sometimes the website is a little behind on updates. There was only one coach there that was not too old. It was a Windsport 31D. We looked at it, but knew we weren’t going to be interested. This is a model I’ve mentioned before, that has a folded kitchen counter. This one was a real bare bones unit…plastic sink and other cheap stuff. Here’s a picture that I took at the last show. Might be the same unit.

Windsport 31D Kitchen

Windsport 31D Kitchen

We suggested that we take a look to see if we could financially quality for either of the new Georgetown coaches before we went any further. The salesman agreed, so we went into the office to get that process started. Low and behold, we were fine from a loan standpoint for either the Georgetown 329 or 328. So it was off to Redondo Beach for the evening, with plans to come back the next afternoon, which was Saturday.

In the evening, I scoured all of the RV Forums looking for any bad things about the 329 or the 328. I had seen almost everything on both of these coaches already, but wanted to check one more time. From what I could tell, people were happy with these models. Of course, neither model is perfect, but over all there were few complaints about either of these models, or Georgetown in general.

Orange County RV Show, day two

We got a little bit of a late start on Saturday afternoon, and the salesman got stuck in traffic on the way over from Colton. By the time we finally connected, it was about 4:30.

Georgetown in the Fountain Valley parking lot, just after arrival from Colton.

Georgetown in the Fountain Valley parking lot, just after arrival from Colton.

The salesman had just pulled into the parking lot at the Fountain Valley lot, and was unhooking his small pickup truck, which he had towed. The coach looked very nice. It appeared to be about the same size as the 329. Looking at the specs, it’s 1 inch longer at 34’4″. Wheelbase, size of tanks, height, and width are the same. The 328 has one more slide than the 329, on the passenger side of the coach. This will probably make the 328 a little bit heavier than the 329.

We entered the coach and took a look. Since the slides were all in, we got a good look at what the coach looks like inside while in driving mode. There is enough space to walk from the front to the back easily. This isn’t the greatest picture, but you can see how close the widest part of the kitchen counter is to the wall on the other side of the coach.

Georgetown 328 with slides in.

Georgetown 328 with slides in.

The salesman asked if we wanted to take the coach out for a spin. We said yes, and he drove back out of the parking lot. We went around Fountain Valley in a big circle. This coach felt very much like the Fleetwood Flair that we had rented, and that’s not surprising. It’s got the same engine, and is about the same size and length. I was surprised at how quiet this coach was – really not much rattling around in there, although it was not loaded with gear yet, and that probably helps.

When we got back to the lot, I asked if we could see how the coach looked with all the slides out, so he drove into the main part of the lot and parked it in a spacious spot. Then he went to the control panel, which is in the hallway between the front of the coach and the bedroom, and pushed the buttons to open each slide. After that he fired up the generator and got the main air conditioner going. Cold air came rushing out quickly.

Georgetown 328 with the slides out

Georgetown 328 with the slides out

Having both of these salon slides out gives a lot of floor space….this coach seemed much bigger that the 329 as a result. In the picture above you can see that the counter top needs to come out further than the more galley-like straight counter on the 329 below. This is because of the refrigerator in the 328. It’s a full size residential refrigerator instead of the Propane/Electric convertible unit that is used in most RVs.

Thinner counter on the Georgetown 329

Thinner counter on the Georgetown 329

Here’s a better look at the residential fridge in the 328.

Residential fridge in Georgetown 328

Residential fridge in Georgetown 328

And here’s what a Propane/Electric fridge looks like. Much smaller, and a lot less deep. This one isn’t from the Georgetown 329….it’s from the Windsport 32A, but they are basically the same type. I didn’t get a good shot of the 329 fridge.

Propane/Electric RV Fridge

Propane/Electric RV Fridge

I was actually a little bit concerned about the residential fridge in the 328 at first, but I was also concerned about issues with the typical RV refrigerator. There are pros and cons to each.

Propane/Electric Absorption Refrigerators

With a Propane/Electric fridge or “Absorption” fridge, when you have electrical power, the fridge runs on electricity. When no electricity is present, the fridge switches over to propane automatically. The advantages are pretty obvious. If you are doing boondock camping (camping in a location without electrical hookups), the ability of the fridge to run on propane is a nice feature.

There are some downsides, though. There are two makers of this kind of fridge – Dometic and Norcold. Both of their products have had problems with fires. There are a lot of opinions on the reason for this that I won’t go into that here, but it is a real problem, and it’s related to how the technology works. To make matters worse, fixing this type of refrigerator is very expensive. This type of unit is also quite expensive to replace. A decent model goes for over 7K. That’s more than double what a residential fridge will set you back. And finally, since these type of refrigerators work using evaporation, they are very slow to cool down. They also aren’t very good at keeping a consistent temperature, and can get too warm fairly easily. You don’t want to be standing in front of them with the door open, taking a long time to find what you want. I’ve heard a lot of stories of soft ice cream and beer that wasn’t cold enough. Horrors! Finally, they are small. Really small. This isn’t a problem if you have two people going away for a weekend. It is a problem if you have a the same two people going away for weeks at a time. Imagine what they would be like for a family. Even the largest four door models are small compared to a residential style unit, and they are more prone to fires than the smaller two door units.

Residential Refrigerators

Residential Refrigerators don’t have the fire problem. They have no burner, and their operation doesn’t produce flammable hydrogen gas that can escape from the system. They just have a compressor and a fan, like the units in your home. They are also much bigger, and can hold a much more consistent temperature than Absorption units. If they crap out on you, the replacement cost is under 3K, not over 7K. They also come with bells and whistles such as water and ice dispensers in the door.

The main issue on the con side is battery consumption when you are not hooked up to shore power. I’ve seen a raging argument on the RV forums about how long your residential fridge will run on batteries when you are boondocking. If you are in a campsite with electrical hookups….no problem. The fridge will run just like your home fridge runs. When you are driving, no problem; the engine charges all the batteries as you roll, and this keeps the fridge batteries topped off. You can also run the house generator to re-charge the batteries for your fridge, so even if you are boondocking there is a way to get the batteries recharged. The problem some people see is that, in some cases, the fridge batteries won’t last an entire night – people wake up to a fridge that hasn’t been on for an hour or two. There was some discussion about this issue specifically about the Georgetown 328, with a few people saying they were only getting about 5-6 hours on the batteries, and other people saying that they were getting up to 24 hours on a charge. I suspect that the real number is somewhere between the two. We’ll see.

I finally convinced myself that the battery consumption problem with the Residential Refrigerator was a minor problem, and the advantages of a residential fridge far outweigh the potential problems. Why?

I don’t expect us to be doing all that much boondocking. If this was a big priority for us, we would be looking at different coaches. If you are going to do a lot of boondocking, you need to make that a priority when you are shopping. You want fresh water tanks that are at least 70 gallons. You want grey water tanks to be at least 60 gallons, and the black water tanks should be pretty close to that size as well. Remember that there usually aren’t dump stations at boondocking locations. They might be miles away. The Georgetown 329 and 328 have 50 gallon water tanks, and 41 gallons each for the Grey and Black tanks. That’s cutting things pretty slim for boondocking more than a few days here and there.

One thing I would look into with a Residential Refrigerator is Solar Panels. If you get the right setup, you can keep the batteries in pretty good shape during the day, and that can really help when you boondock, even if you don’t have a residential fridge.

Laura and I spent some time going through the 328 in detail, opening up all of the cabinets and drawers, sitting on all of the furniture, laying in the bed, standing in the shower, sitting on the toilet, and asking a lot of questions. I went outside and looked in all of the storage compartments, the dump station compartment, and the electrical compartment. I climbed up the ladder in the back (which was quite sturdy) and checked out the fiberglass roof.

Over all, we were very excited about this unit. It’s got a lot of features that aren’t on the 329, and it’s fit and finish is way beyond most other units we’ve looked at in this price range. It isn’t an entry-level coach. It’s pretty firmly in the Mid Range.

The Mid Range vs. the High End

Is the Georgetown 328 as nice as a Newmar or a Tiffin? Nope, but the price difference is pretty large. Take the Newmar 3308 that we looked at in Moorpark. It’s very comparable to the Georgetown 328 from a size and features standpoint.  The MSRP for the Newmar 3308 coach was 147K. The MSRP for the Georgetown 328 is 126K. That’s a 21K difference. When you compare the two coaches, you find that they have a lot more in common that you think.

The Newmar has it over the Georgetown with woodwork and furniture. The Georgetown has a better roof, a better fridge, a larger TV, and space/plumbing for a washer dryer. The Georgetown also has an oven big enough to cook a pizza in. The Newmar has the same kind of cook top that the Georgetown has, and a “Convection Microwave” that is supposed to serve as an oven. I wouldn’t try to cook a pizza in that. I’m not even sure that a frozen pizza would fit in the small Absorption refrigerator in the Newmar 3308. You could fit several in the Residential refrigerator of the Georgetown 328 and have plenty of room left over.

I like the storage compartments in the Georgetown better than what I saw in the Newmar. They have a roughly equivalent amount of space, but the Newmar has plywood structure in the compartments with indoor/outdoor carpet covering it. The Georgetown has rotocast plastic, with large drain holes that have screw in covers. You could hose them out and not damage the coach.

If I were going to boondock most of the time, I’d probably look around for lightly used Newmar or Tiffin. Both of these coaches have larger fresh water, grey water, and black water tanks. If I was going to live full-time in the RV, I would prefer a Newmar or a Tiffin, because the build quality of the furniture is probably going to hold up better.

Theoretically, Newmars and Tiffins should hold their value longer than a Georgetown, but that is dicey, from what I’ve seen. I don’t see a huge difference in asking prices for Newmar and Tiffin units on the market, but the only way to find out what these coaches really go for used is to start making offers. One thing I have noticed – there aren’t nearly as many lightly used Newmar or Tiffin coaches available on the used markets – I think people tend to keep them longer, which tells me two things. First, they hold up very well over time, and second, the people who buy them are not newbies. They are more knowledgeable. I think this level of coach tends to be an upgrade for somebody who has been in the lifestyle for a while, and enjoys it.

Decision Time

 After getting finished with our inspection and all of our questions on the Georgetown 328, we were ready to make a decision. We asked the salesman if he could get us a deal on this coach, with our down payment amount, that would give us our monthly payment target. He said he was pretty sure that he could. He left us in the coach while he went to work things out. With him gone, we did more inspection, and I took a bunch of pictures, posted below. He came back saying that the numbers worked out, and showed them to us. Laura and I agreed to the numbers. The salesman shook our hands, and said he’d go get the paperwork started. We could go in and sign in a little while. He left us in the coach again, and we continued checking things out.

I think we got a pretty good deal. It worked out to 24% off of MSRP, and is affordable to us. The interest rate was better than what we were offered at the Credit Union, and for a longer term. We signed all the paperwork. There’s a LOT….more than a car. We made an appointment to do our PDI (Pre-Delivery Inspection) in about a week, which gives us time to move money around for the down payment, and find a storage spot. The PDI will be done at the dealership in Colton. There is an RV Park close to Colton that the dealership has an agreement with. We can get a couple free days of camping there, so we will take them up on that and give it a good shake out. Now we are counting down the hours!




IMG_1311 IMG_1313 IMG_1316 IMG_1317 IMG_1319 IMG_1320 IMG_1321 IMG_1322 IMG_1323 IMG_1324 IMG_1325 IMG_1326 IMG_1327 IMG_1328 IMG_1330 IMG_1331 IMG_1332 IMG_1333 IMG_1334 IMG_1335 IMG_1336 IMG_1337 IMG_1338 IMG_1339 IMG_1340 IMG_1342 IMG_1346 IMG_1347 IMG_1349 IMG_1350 IMG_1353 IMG_1355 IMG_1356 IMG_1357

Georgetown 328 dinette, couch, and TV in slide

Georgetown 328 dinette, couch, and TV in slide

Categories: The Hunt for the Wild RV | Tags: , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , | 14 Comments

RV Shopping 3 – It Heats Up

Here’s what happened since the last post.


In RV Shopping Part 2, we described our trip to the Orange County RV Show, which was a dealer show. We looked at quite a few new coaches, and only liked one of them a lot – the Forest River Georgetown 329. We also looked at used Diesel Pushers for the first time, and looked at a few used Class A Gas coaches. The show was a good experience, which we enjoyed very much.

After the Orange County show, we dived into some more intensive research. At first it was centered on Diesel Pushers……are they a good choice for us, what prices could we expect, maintenance and repair costs, and so on. We also learned a lot about determining value using the NADA Guide and other sources. Then we started to focus on the possibility of buying a new coach – could we afford it, what brands were the best for our price range, and so on. We wanted to sit down with a dealer and talk dollars on a new coach just to see what we could do, given the amount of money we could get out of our IRAs without taking a large tax hit.

Buying a new coach has advantages and disadvantages. On the plus side, you get better financing terms, and you get a warranty. You also know that your coach hasn’t been lived in by anybody else, or abused by anybody else. On the bad side, you take a depreciation hit, and you have to go through the problem “shake out” that seems to be the norm on new motor homes.

Our next shopping trip was up north – a dealership in Moorpark that sells new Newmar coaches and higher end used coaches, and a dealership in Thousand Oaks that sells new Itasca coaches and a wide variety of used coaches.


The drive out to Moorpark was longer than I expected. From Redondo Beach, it’s the 405 freeway all the way through the Sepulveda pass and deep into the San Fernando Valley. Then there is a big left turn on the 118 freeway, and you are on that freeway almost to the end of the line. I think of this area as being closer than going down south because I did a commute in the same direction for 9 years, to the Santa Clarita Valley which is only a few miles past the 118. It’s very familiar to me. I tend to underestimate how long the 118 freeway is.

This dealership is a small, family run company. They have very good ratings from customers, and the feel at this place is very good. They have no service facilities. They sell the high end and very expensive Newmar line, which starts out with the entry level Bay Star line, and goes all the way up through 300K plus Diesel Pushers. These coaches are made in Indiana with support by the local Amish community (some of the Amish work at Newmar and others work at other vendors and as independent craftsmen). Woodwork is better than anything I’ve seen, even in the entry level Bay Star units. Tiffin comes close, but no cigar. Neither Laura or I thought that we would be able to afford a brand new Newmar, but there were some used coaches on their website that we were interested in. When we got to the lot, only one person was there – the yard manager. Very nice guy, and he did a good job of showing us coaches.

Since we were trying to figure out financing options, we wanted to sit down with the somebody at this dealership and see what they could offer us for an entry level Newmar, even though we didn’t really think we could afford it. We weren’t able to do that. The yard manager isn’t allowed to work deals, and said we had to come back when the owner was there to talk money. We looked at four new coaches…the Bay Star Sport 2702 and the Bay Star Sport 2903 which are the lowest end of the Bay Star series, and two at the higher end of the Bay Star line –  the 3124 and the 3308. The Bay Star Sport units were pretty, but too small. The Bay Star 3124 was a nice unit….a large step above the Bay Star Sport line in both scale and features. The Bay Star 3308 was a really nice coach, and we were quite taken by it. It was the right size and had almost all of the features that we wanted. We had a very limited financial conversation with the yard manager on the 3308. The MSRP listed on the sticker was $143,126. The yard manager said that this coach would probably go for the mid 120K range. That isn’t a good deal – it’s only about 12% off of MSRP.

After that conversation, we went over to one of the used coaches we were interested in. It was a 2008 Monaco Cayman 35 Foot Diesel Pusher. The coach looked nice, but it was pretty well used, and it didn’t smell very good. Asking price was 99.9K. Low NADA for this coach is 69.8K. We asked the yard manager why the asking price was so far above Nada low retail, and he didn’t have a good answer. I also asked him why the Cayman had been for on their lot for so long (more than a month) with such a high price. His answer was that it was a Monaco coach, and since they went out of business before being picked up by another manufacturer after the 2008 crash, most people didn’t want to buy them. My first thought was to ask why they didn’t lower the price to compensate, but I didn’t say anything. I asked if they sold used coaches on consignment, and he said that they had a mixture of trade ins and consignment units. That might be what was going on with the Cayman….the private owner might not want to accept under a certain value for their coach.

Laura and I sat in this coach while the yard manager went out to do something in the office. When he came back, he told us that the Bay Star 3308 was going to be put on sale for the coming weekend, for 115K. This is about 20% off of MSRP, which is the low side of normal discounts off of MSRP. It may be a decent price for a Newmar, but it is less of a discount than the 25-30% that is a typical for most coaches. He said we could call the owner and make an appointment to talk about it.

We didn’t end up trying to tie in with the owner of this lot. It was pretty obvious to us that 115K was well above our price range, and even if we got them down to 30% off of MSRP, it would still be pretty tight. A Newmar just isn’t going to be our first coach.

There is one bit of advice that I would give to the owner of this dealership. If you want to get more sales, hire somebody else that can talk dollars, and make sure they are on the property when you aren’t. We’ve been there twice, and missed the owner both times. Not good. You are leaving money on the table. A good salesman would have tried to work us down to the Bay Star 3124 or even a Bay Star Sport. It probably wouldn’t have worked with us, but it might work with somebody else in a similar situation.

Thousand Oaks

Moorpark and Thousand Oaks are a lot closer together than I thought. You just take Hwy 23. It’s about a 15 minute drive.

There are two lots for the Thousand Oaks dealership, both on the same street. One has their lower end stock….used motorhomes under about 60K. The other lot has higher end used coaches and their stock of new Itasca Motor Homes. Itasca is built by Winnebago. The lines are almost identical. Originally Itasca was a higher priced line, but that isn’t the case these days.

We hit the low priced lot first. I didn’t like any of the coaches they had on this lot. I’ve been on their website pretty often, and their stock looks fairly good there, but they didn’t look so good when we actually went into them. I didn’t see one coach that I would consider. I’m thinking that many of the coaches here are traded in units that dealers didn’t want to sell. I asked the yard manager if their coaches were consignment. He told me that they owned all of them…..that tended to reinforce my suspicion here. They are buying used coaches on the wholesale market and trying to retail them.

The high end lot had some interesting coaches. There were two Diesel Pushers from their web site that I wanted to see. One was a Fleetwood Discovery 40x. That one looked very nice. It was way over priced compared to the NADA low retail value, but I got the impression that this company would negotiate. There was only one thing that turned me off about this coach. Size. A 40 foot coach looks HUGE when you are standing next to it. I thought that something only 6 feet longer than the coach I rented would be no problem. I’m not so sure about that.

We looked at one other Diesel Pusher that was on the website – a Safari Cheetah. This one was cheaper than the Fleetwood, but it didn’t look nearly as good, and it was also a 40 foot monster. It just didn’t feel right to me.

As we were on our way out of there, we looked at a another gas coach that had just arrived – a Winnebago Sightseer. It was a 2010 model, and it looked pretty good. It had a very interesting floor plan. Laura really liked it. The manager of this lot said what he thought the price would be (89K), and also said it was around 35 feet long. It looked longer to me, so when we got home I looked it up. This coach is over 37 feet. I wouldn’t consider a coach that long with a gas engine. Too much weight to pull mountain grades.

Over all, this lot was not bad, but all of the used coaches had some kind of issue. If budget forced us into an inexpensive coach, I’d give it a much harder look.

Sorry there aren’t any pictures for this post. I didn’t take my own pictures….it’s more difficult to do when you have sales people breathing down your neck, but that’s not the only reason. With the exception of the Bay Star 3308, there really weren’t any coaches that appealed to me. I thought about pulling some of the pictures from the websites of these two dealers, but I don’t think that’s kosher from a copyright standpoint, so I opted not to do that.

More in the next post with pictures this time…..another dealer show in Orange County.

Categories: The Hunt for the Wild RV | Tags: , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , | Leave a comment

RV Shopping Part 2

Fountain Valley RV Show

Fountain Valley RV Show

And so it resumes. Now that we are home from our driving trip, we are back on the RV search.

January 2014 Dealer Show

To start things off, we went to a “dealer” show in Fountain Valley, California. It was put on by the largest RV dealer in Southern California, a dealer that we haven’t had the best experience with in the past. These guys can be really pushy, as I mentioned in an earlier post…..we were subject to high pressure sales at their location in Santa Fe Springs, followed by the third degree from a sales manager as we were trying to leave, and then frequent phone calls for weeks afterward. This really soured me on the company.

I must say that I was very pleased with this show at the Fountain Valley location. We walked onto the lot, got a welcome from the girl at the front desk, and then were allowed to wander through a large number of new and used motor homes at our own pace and without any harassment by sales people. We talked to the yard manager briefly at one point, and he was friendly and helpful. Perhaps it’s well worth the extra 15 minutes to drive past the Santa Fe location and go to Fountain Valley instead.

Since we are focusing on Class A motor homes, that is all that we looked at. The new coaches were up front, so we went through those first.

The A.C.E. and FR3 – Small A/C Hybrid Motorhomes

Early in our days of RV shopping, we were quite taken by the entry level Class A/C “hybrids” like the A.C.E. by Thor and the FR3 by Forest River, as well as the entry level Winnebago Vista 26HE, the Coachmen 29, and the Fleetwood Storm. A/C Hybrids have drop down beds in the front, which is supposed to make them like a Class C with the over-the-cab bunk.

Most of the coaches in this niche are between 26 and 30 feet long, on the small Ford V10 chassis – 16,000 to 18,000 GVWR. This puts them between the Class C and Class A from a size standpoint. Wheelbases are on the short side….an example would be the 30 ft version of the A.C.E. at 190 inches. My favorite of all of these, from a floor plan and features standpoint, was the FR3. Before Laura and I did a lot of research on RVs, we could see ourselves in an FR3. This coach is basically a rip off of the A.C.E. 30.1, but the fit and finish look better, and it has some desirable features such as a double sink.

Over time, we ended up deciding that we aren’t interested in the entry level A/C Hybrid coaches.

Why? Several reasons.

In the early days, the thought of driving around a large motor home was scary. Seeing a short motor home like the Winnebago Vista 26HE sitting next to coaches that are 34 feet or more made the small coach look a lot easier to deal with. We’ve changed our mind about that.

Late last year, we bit the bullet and rented a Class A motor home from El Monte RV. The coach was a 2007 Fleetwood Flair 33R. These units are 34.2 feet long. On the day that we picked up this coach, it looked just enormous to me, and I had a good case of the butterflies as I climbed into the driver’s seat.

As it turned out, driving this monster was absolutely no problem at all. I had read several internet articles on driving Class A’s, and watched some good YouTube videos as well, and that was helpful. The rig handled quite well, had plenty of power, and was actually relaxing to drive.

Scratch one reason for wanting to stay with the entry level short coach.

Just as important was living in the bigger coach for a few days. We really appreciated the size. While a 34.2 foot coach isn’t huge, it’s substantially larger in scale than the entry level hybrid coaches we had spent time in at shows and dealerships. Laura, Izzy, and I had plenty of room to stretch out and enjoy time in the 34 footer.

So, driving a larger coach was no problem, and we found that the extra size of a larger coach was really nice. What else led us away from the entry level hybrids?

Initially, we were thinking we would buy one of these entry level coaches new. They can be had for a pretty good price – in the mid 60 to low 70 thousand dollar range. After doing a lot of reading on RV forums, and looking closely at these machines in person, we realized that entry level often can mean shoddy. The forums are full of stores about this part of the RV market. There are always a few people on the threads who jump in and say these coaches are great, but by and large what you read about is:

  • bad handling due to the short wheelbase;
  • cheap woodwork that falls apart quickly;
  • lousy quality furniture;
  • terrible quality beds;
  • bad wiring;
  • doors that don’t fit, and other problems.

I would say that on average, even including input from the happy owners of these coaches, the perception is that they are only adequate for a couple vacation trips per year plus a few weekend outings here and there. Nobody seems to think these coaches will stand up to frequent long trips, or any kind of heavy duty or full time use. In fact, the owner’s manual for one of these coaches that I saw online states specifically that the unit was not designed for full time use.

Onto The Next Level of Gasser

Now that we have eliminated the entry level coaches, what’s the alternative?

At the show, we looked at new units that were a step above entry level in both size and quality, but still not out of range from a price standpoint. The brands they had that were close to our criteria were the Forest River Georgetown line, the Fleetwood Bounder line, and several levels of the Itasca line. Laura and I had a hard time finding a coach that we both liked. The only one that we both really liked a lot was the Georgetown VE 329.


Step right up into the Georgetown 329

The Georgetown 329 had most of what we want…..a nice wrap around dinette, good-sized couch, Euro Recliner, double sink, and a counter with lots of room to work. It also had the TV in a very usable spot. The bedroom had the queen bed in a slide, with small windows by each side of the head of the bed – good for cross ventilation (this is one of Laura’s favorite features, since she tends to sleep hot). This unit also had the scale that we are looking for which should improve handling on the road. The GVWR is 20,500, and wheelbase is 208 inches. That is really generous compared to the entry level hybrids.

The long, long counter of the Georgetown 329

The long, long counter of the Georgetown 329

Wrap around dinette on the Georgetown 329

Wrap around dinette on the Georgetown 329

Looking forward on the driver's side - Georgetown 329

Looking forward on the driver’s side – Georgetown 329

We were a little disappointed that there was only one new coach we both liked. There were a couple that I liked but Laura didn’t. One of the Fleetwood Bounders looked good to me, but Laura hated the kitchen counter. She had a point on that one.  There was a lot of unusable space on that counter, and it was strange the way they integrated it into the slide.

Fleetwood Bounder 34M with crazy counter

Fleetwood Bounder 34M with crazy counter

A few words about bunkhouse models.

For a while we were thinking that a bunkhouse model would be a good idea. This was mainly my idea. We have a middle aged cat that we would need to take with us for long trips. I don’t want to burden the family with feeding him every day when we’re gone for a couple of months at a time. I could envision removing the mattress on the lower bunk and using it as a place to put a cat box and perhaps other pet supplies.

There are a lot of nice bunk house models out there in the 34-35 foot range. One we liked was the Fleetwood Fiesta 34 footer that El Monte RV sells. These, of course, are former rentals, but they are selling them before they get too many miles on them. We looked at a 2010 model while we were there that had about 60,000 miles on it, for an asking price of about 65K. I think we could have worked that price down into the mid 50K range, based on what I’ve read here and there.

We saw a nice Fleetwood Bounder 34B bunkhouse model at the show that was very similar to the Fleetwood Fiesta, but there were things about it that we didn’t like. It was, however, the only other new model that I could have lived with at this show – making a total of three that interested me. I liked it more than Laura did.

The problem with bunkhouse models is that you give up too much living space. It’s usually either the extra chair in the salon, or a big piece of counter space.

Laura came up with the idea that we could probably put the cat box in the shower, and pull it out when we need to. I have some problems with that idea, but over all it will probably work. She has a good point.

At this point, I would say that a bunk model would not be a target for us. If we found a nice one that had other features we also like, perhaps we would reconsider, but at this point this is no longer a focus for us.

Touring the Used Coaches

After only finding one of the new coaches that we agreed on, we decided to look at their used coach inventory.  The first one we went into was a Fleetwood Fiesta 32S. This coach didn’t smell very good, and we didn’t like the floor plan. The kitchen counter was way too small. That being said, it wasn’t in terrible shape, and they were asking 49.9K. I suspect somebody could have talked that down a little.

Fiesta 34S tiny counter

Fiesta 34S tiny counter

Next up was an Itasca Suncruiser 35 offered at 59.9K. This was a nice coach and it was in pretty good shape too. It had some recent upgrades, such as a new flatscreen TV (looked like about 37 inch) that still had the energy rating sticker on it. There was one huge problem with this coach. It was a 2004. Too old for my taste. And the price was way out of line for a coach that old too, no matter what upgrades had been added. The NADA low retail number for this coach is 40.8K. Enough said. I’m sure these guys would deal a ways down from 59.9K, but seeing a coach priced that far above what it’s worth is a turn off for me. It’s like they are looking for suckers.

Itasca Suncruiser 35 galley

Itasca Suncruiser 35 galley

Next up was a coach from one of my favorite companies, Newmar.

38 Foot Mountainaire by Newmar

38 Foot Mountainaire by Newmar

I was pretty excited to see this one, until I got close enough to see the year. It was a 2003. Way too old (I don’t think I’d go earlier than about 2009 for a Gas Class A). Then there was the asking price – 49.9K. NADA low retail for this one is 32.2k, so obviously this is way overpriced and needs to be negotiated way down. We went in to look at it anyway. Newmar does a nice job. Look at this shot, and then remember that this is an 11 year old coach!

Mountainaire interior shot

Mountainaire interior shot

Now on to a newer coach. Windsport is a line of coaches originally from Four Winds. That manufacturer didn’t survive the late 2000s financial melt down. Thor picked them up, and has continued on with many of their most popular models. The Windsport is very much like the Hurricane – in fact, one salesman told me that they are basically identical lines.

Since coach models are allocated to dealers based on the nearest competition, having both the Windsport and the Hurricane means they are selling these coaches at two dealers that might be right next to each other. I suspect Itasca and Winnebago coexist for similar reasons.

The coach we saw here was a 2011 Windsport 31D. Asking price was 69.9K. That doesn’t seem too bad for a 2011 coach until you look at NADA low retail, which is 59.3K. I see a lot of these 31D models of very recent vintage for sale….more than any other model. I wonder if there are problems with them. This model isn’t one of my favorites. I like some of this line, in particular the Hurricane 32A and the Hurricane 34B, but not this model. Why? Mainly because of the kitchen which is an L-shape “folded” kitchen – it just doesn’t look very handy to me.

Windsport 31D Kitchen

Windsport 31D Kitchen

This kitchen configuration is found quite a bit in short coaches from most manufacturers.

The last one of this group of coaches was another older coach – a National RV coach called a Dolphin. It was a 2006 model, which was priced at 74.9K.

Front end of the Dolphin 2006 model

Front end of the Dolphin 2006 model

I hesitated to even look at this one. Part of the reason was the age, and part of it was the company. National RV went out of business in 2008. That’s a pretty long time ago. Unlike other manufacturers that went out of business during the downturn, nobody has picked them up. It’s a dead line.

That’s a shame, because from what I can tell, these were really well made coaches. The interior reminds me of a Tiffin or Newmar.

Interior shot of Dolphin

Interior shot of Dolphin

I didn’t take a lot of pictures of the inside, and this shot doesn’t really do it justice, but it’s the best that I have. This coach is full of real wood and higher end details. And although asking price is too high – NADA low retail for this one is at 56.2K – it’s not bad for a 2006 coach.

Contrast that to the Windsport 31D above which is a 2011 model with a low retail value of 59.3K. An eight year old coach that is worth only 3.1K less than a four year old coach? The difference, of course, is build quality.

However, to give you a glimpse of what buying a 2006 coach really is……look at the photo below of the engine compartment. I know this doesn’t mean that the engine is shot, but it certainly looks like it’s been around.

Engine compartment, 2006 Dolphin

Engine compartment, 2006 Dolphin

Getting Pushed to Consider a Diesel

While we were ambling around the used coaches, we met the Yard Manager.  After we told him that we didn’t see any used coaches that we liked, he asked if we’d seen the used diesel pushers (DP) yet. I told him that those would probably be quite a ways above our price range, to which he said “you might be surprised.” That didn’t really convince me, because I know that most DP units cost between 200-300K new. But to be honest, we hadn’t really done much looking at DPs, so we decided to walk through them.

2006 Camelot 40 PDQ price

2006 Camelot 40 PDQ price

The first one we entered was a 2006 Monaco Camelot 40 PDQ. Asking price above. This was the only coach I had seen so far that wasn’t way above the NADA low retail value on the asking price. The NADA value on this one is 116.9K. MSRP on this sucker was 273.5 when it was new, but I’m sure it sold for a good deal less than that…..20% discounts off of MSRP are the norm. I was pretty impressed with this one.

Camelot entry

Camelot entry

It was obvious that the quality was there. It had wood laminate and tile floors, too. The kitchen was the best I had seen to date.

Camelot kitchen

Camelot kitchen

This one had the classic DP front entry (“bus style”) door. Note that the floor in the driving area is flat, and note the tile.

Camelot driver's area

Camelot driver’s area

So, why was I even bothering to look at this one, given that it was a 2006 model?

My age criteria is different for a DP than it is for a gas coach. I would like to stay at 2007 or newer for a DP, but under the right circumstances would consider a 2006. With a gasser, I would only go five model years earlier, or to a 2009 (and if we wait much longer, with 2015 models coming out, I may need to stick to 2010 or newer.)  These age limits are partly due to normal wear and tear, and partly because we may need to get some financing and most lenders have significantly tightened up on lending for older coaches.

Does that mean that I think a pusher is the way to go for Laura and I? I’m not sure yet.

There are pros and cons. Briefly, on the pro side you get:

  • higher build quality with better fit and finish;
  • an engine that is probably good for a million miles;
  • increased scale (often a full-sized queen bed instead of the “short” queen);
  • much more towing and carrying capacity;
  • a better ride;
  • better brakes; and
  • a quiet driving area.

The cons are:

  • much higher price (but also better trade-in and resale prices);
  • much higher maintenance and repair costs;
  • more expensive fuel (even though MPG is better); and
  • just the sheer size. This Camelot is a 40 foot coach. I handled 34 feet just fine, but 40 feet?

The positive thing about starting to at least consider this direction is that it opens up a lot more possibilities for used coaches. The Camelot was an expensive coach, really beyond our price range even at the NADA value, but there are a lot of DPs out there with a NADA low retail value in the 80-95K range. That is a little more like it. Part of what makes the Camelot so expensive is the engine, which is a 400 HP unit. There are a lot of 330 to 360 HP units out there, often in 36-38 foot coaches that cost a lot less, but still have the very nice features and finishes.

My favorite of the DPs that we looked at, and also my favorite coach of the show, was a 2008 Monaco Knight 38PDQ.

Monaco Knight 38PDQ

Monaco Knight 38PDQ

This one was still above our price range, sitting at a NADA low retail of 114.5K. It was a little below 40 feet, which I like with a 360 HP engine. The interior was quite nice with plenty of storage inside and out. It just felt right to me. Not sure what Laura thought of this one. The asking price was pretty ridiculous – 159K, but the ad said “request internet price” so most likely that would be 20-25% below asking or somewhere around $120K.  I wouldn’t pay above 114.5K for this coach myself, but they might get somebody to. Here’s a few more shots:

Monaco Knight couch and counter.

Monaco Knight couch and counter.

Couch # 2 and Dinette. I think some of the upholstery in this unit needs replacement.

Couch # 2 and Dinette. I think some of the upholstery in this unit needs replacement.

Bed, with Laura's favorite windows

Bed, with Laura’s favorite windows

View from midships forward, showing tile flooring

View from midships forward, showing tile flooring

That was about it for the show.

Moving Forward

Where does that leave us in our search?

We are narrowing down now.

For Gas Coaches, we are going to focus on higher end 32-34 foot units from either Tiffin or Newmar. Price point we are looking at is between the mid 70K and the mid 90K range. We would like to limit to model year 2009 and newer.

For DP Coaches, we still need to do more research, but what I’m thinking as of now is 2007 and newer model years, no more than 60K miles, with a price below 100K.

We’ll see where we go from here.

Categories: The Hunt for the Wild RV | Tags: , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , | 1 Comment

Blog at

%d bloggers like this: